Anti-Islam website attacks Prophet [s] with this sharh of ibn hajar [ra]

[JayshAllah]

They used this Hadith, and Ibn hajar's commentary (in parenthesis), in order to prove that Aisha [ra] was still pre-pubescent when she was moved into the house of the Prophet (i.e. consummated):

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)

(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151


Can anyone clarify?

[Mu'awiya]

Asalaamu alaikum wr wb.


i heard theres a hadith in abi dawud where Aisha herself mentions that a marriage wasn't consummated by arabs until only after a females menses - her menses signifying her adulthood.


Plus that hadith in of itself isn't sufficient to prove that Aa'isha was a child, it only shows that she still played with dolls. Infact, the logic of these people is amazing because they themselves accuse 13yr olds, or 9yr olds of being children. Yet they themselves know that these 'children' are capable of having sex and even having children!


How is it possible that someone can have children and be a child? Their logic is confusing and they themselves throughout the different countries in the US, UK and Europe can't agree on a common age for adulthood. Try doing a little bit of research on this, but they differ - ranging from 13 till 18 - So does this mean that having sex in the Netherlands at 15 is peadophilia in the UK? Will anyone who follows the law of one nation be counted as a peadophile in another? Who's truly right?

The answers simple in Islam - if you're able to fulfill the duties of marriage, and are capable of it - then you can get married. However, if it will be harmful [and no-one can bring one shred of evidence that Aa'isha got harmed by her marriage, rather she benefited herself and billions of others in Islam (being in the top 5 narrators of ahadith), aswell as advancing in medicine studies] - which shows that she was perfectly normal and said nothing but good about the Prophet. Whereas a person abused would not praise their abuser willingly.



A 9yr old with a child:







Here's some interesting links:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Polemics/aishah.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/587743-post146.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...phet-pbuh.html

http://www.answering-christianity.co...mshamoun26.htm




If someone said that a 9yr old isn't capable of having children or sex;

I would quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر

"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)

And Allah knows best.

[JayshAllah]

Brother Muawiyyah, I am familiar with the counter-arguments. I am simply asking about this specific attack, which is the commentary in Ibn Hajar's Fath al-bari.

[Abuz Zubair]

I don't think any one disagrees that she was pre-pubescent when she was married, and had reached puberty before the consummation of marriage.

[JayshAllah]

I don't think any one disagrees that she was pre-pubescent when she was married, and had reached puberty before the consummation of marriage.

Gosh darn it, why can't anyone answer my question...

OK let me be more specific so you understand my problem:

When this Hadith happened:

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)

(Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151

How old was Aisha [ra]? Was she younger than 9 years old and living in Abu Bakr's house, or was she 9+ (living in he Prophet's house) ? Did this Hadith happen before the Prophet's marriage to Aisha [ra]? Or was it between the marriage and the consummation? Or was it after the consummation?

Is there any proof to substantiate the fact that this happened in the 6-9 year old period and not 9+ ?

[MohammadMufti]

It is not incorrect, and pre-pubescent marriages are not forbidden where it isn't feared that the child won't have her marriage consummated until she grows older. To take a later example, Umar (ra) was marrying Umm Kulthum bint Ali (ra) while she was too young for sex, and Ali (ra) changed his initial opinion (no) to legitimizing it when Umar (ra) explained that he was marrying her but not for that.

From what was taught to me, she was nine years old when she lived in the prophet's (saw) house but there is no evidence for sex prior to her reaching menses. This hadith is from after she moved into the prophet's (saw) house. And people still do this although more rarely because it is a means of establishing that a girl remained a virgin till she was with you and Bibi Aisha (ra) use to say about herself that the prophet (saw) said she was like a tree of which the fruits had not been picked till him (saw). The fact that she lived with him (ra) in her youth provided her the necessary ability to become one of the most vocal of our mothers (ra) just as Ali's (ra) early training and reversion made him one of the most learned (ra).

[Bassam Zawadi]

Assalamu Alaykum


The commentary from Fathul Bari was not quoted fully.


Here is the actual full part...



قَالَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ : فِي هَذَا الْحَدِيث أَنَّ اللَّعِب بِالْبَنَاتِ لَيْسَ كَالتَّلَهِّي بِسَائِرِ الصُّوَر الَّتِي جَاءَ فِيهَا الْوَعِيد : وَإِنَّمَا أَرْخَصَ لِعَائِشَة فِيهَا لِأَنَّهَا إِذْ ذَاكَ كَانَتْ غَيْر بَالِغ . قُلْت : وَفِي الْجَزْم بِهِ نَظَرٌ لَكِنَّهُ مُحْتَمَل ؛ لِأَنَّ عَائِشَة كَانَتْ فِي غَزْوَة خَيْبَر بِنْت أَرْبَع عَشْرَة سَنَة إِمَّا أَكْمَلْتهَا أَوْ جَاوَزْتهَا أَوْ قَارَبْتهَا . وَأَمَّا فِي غَزْوَة تَبُوك فَكَانَتْ قَدْ بَلَغَتْ قَطْعًا فَيَتَرَجَّح رِوَايَة مَنْ قَالَ فِي خَيْبَر ، وَيُجْمَع بِمَا قَالَ الْخَطَّابِيُّ لِأَنَّ ذَلِكَ أَوْلَى مِنْ التَّعَارُض . Source: http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/D...earchLevel=QBE



Al-Khattabi said: In this Hadith playing with dolls is not like playing with other images/statues that are prohibited. It was permissible to 'Aisha because she was still pre-pubescent.

I say (Ibn Hajar): affirmation of this opinion is questionable, but it is possible because 'Aisha was at the time of Khaibar more or less 14 years old, while at the time of Tabuk she had certainly reached puberty. So the narration of Khaibar is preferred/accepted and combined with the view of al-Khattabi to avoid contradiction.


Some points to note...


1) It wasn't Ibn Hajar's view, it was Al Khattabi's.

2) Interestingly see how Ibn Hajar didn't agree with Al Khattabi.

3) The reason for this is because in Sunan Abu Dawud we have the following narration...

Book 36, Number 4914:

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.


Sheikh Albani declared the above narration to be authentic in Sunan Abu Dawud, Hadith no. 4932.


There are two very important things that the above narration tells us.


1) It was either during the time of Khaybar or Tabuk in which Aisha was fourteen years old or more and definitely hit puberty and she still had her dolls with her. Thus, proving Al Khattabi's assertions incorrect that she must have been pre-pubscent and Ibn Hajar stressed this fact.

2) The narration does not say that she was playing with them, they only say that they were in her possession. The only way the Prophet peace be upon him found out was because they were uncovered by the curtain, covering her storage room. So this narration only shows that she was still in possession of them, but not necessarily playing with them. Plus, if she was in a habit of playing with them, why would she cover them up with a curtain in her storage room and why did the Prophet peace be upon him just find out about them? He would have seen her always playing with them.


Many over aged girls even today still keep their barbie dolls, so what?


Conclusion

There are two ways to respond...

1) Missionaries cannot argue back that Aisha simply being in possession of dolls proves that she was pre-pubscent because we see that she still was in possession of them after hitting puberty.

However, it is possible that she used to play with them before hitting puberty and then after hitting puberty she stopped playing with them but still kept them (who knows why, maybe she thought she would have kids in the future and kept it for them. Or maybe she kept them because she planned to give them as a gift in the future or to allow kids to play with them whenever she had the chance)

JayshAllah asked...

How old was Aisha [ra]? Was she younger than 9 years old and living in Abu Bakr's house, or was she 9+ (living in he Prophet's house) ? Did this Hadith happen before the Prophet's marriage to Aisha [ra]? Or was it between the marriage and the consummation? Or was it after the consummation?

Is there any proof to substantiate the fact that this happened in the 6-9 year old period and not 9+ ?

Brother, it is the missionary's duty and obligation to provide evidence that the Prophet consumnated the marriage while she was still playing with the dolls and was still pre-pubscent. They have the burden of proof upon themselves since they are initiating the claim. Someone is innocent until proven guilty and not the other way around.

I can't ask you to provide me evidence that you have never committed a crime before. The burden of proof will be upon me. Same case here, the burden of proof is upon them and not us.


2) Even if they were successful in showing that the Prophet peace be upon him consumnated the marriage with Aisha while she was still playing with her dolls, this is not evidence that she didn't hit puberty. For as Shaykh Uthaymeen said...

But if the shape is complete, and it is as if you are looking at a person – especially if it can move or speak – then I am not entirely at ease with the idea of them being permissible, because this is a complete imitation of the creation of Allaah. It seems that the dolls with which ‘Aa’ishah used to play were not like this, (Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), 2/277-278, cited here http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=23445&ln=eng)


It was possible that Aisha's dolls were shaped in a way that it wasn't haram for an adult to 'play with' or entertain one's self with. Maybe the doll had no eyes or facial components, thus making it halal.

And that by the way is not childish, just 2 weeks ago I knew of a 23 year old girl in my masters class who is very intelligent and still keeps a teddy bear in her car.

Many women are like this.


There really is no argument here. They are just too desperate to find an argument against our religion and this is just one of their stupid arguments.


Bassam Zawadi,

www.call-to-monotheism.com

[JayshAllah]

Brother Bassam, I am the same person who posted on Multaqa...anyways, please don't post that translation on your website, because it is not 100% correct...I will fix it...

And thanks for the rest of your response...

Fi Aman Allah.

[TN_Cat]

As-salamu'alaykum,

We all know and believe that unusual things happened during the times of the Prophets (peace be on them).
Maryiam (ra) became pregnant without a man. So why can a girl not come into her puberty at age 9 during the time of prophecy? Maryiam (ra) was slandered by the kaffar and so is Ayesha. (ra) Its the nature of kaffar to speak ill of the the best of mankind.